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jinsi
誉满一方
加入时间: 2007/09/30
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這次事故令所有人也很難受, 包括各隊員, 拯救隊員, 甚至與小來素未謀面的朋友, 謝謝大家的關心. lulu已把事件的發生經過寫出來, 我想提出以下幾點:
1. 這次事故跟這次活動的難度是無關的, 可以發生在Garibaldi的day hiking或其他戶外活動中.
2. 現在大家很想知道事件的來龍去脈, 猜想為何小來會選擇過河等等, 這些問題的答案(包括警察及拯救隊) 我們是永遠也不會知道的. 各樣的揣測只會帶來悲痛而不會改變事實, 對逝去的小來亦不公平.
3. 這是一次意外, 是沒有對錯, 沒法防範的. 撫心自問各隊員已盡了最大的努力及立即向警方求救, 可惜人力不能勝天.
4. 各項的募捐和支持小來家人的活動令人感到温暖. 希望警方可盡快聯絡到小來的家人, 大家亦不要擔心言語不通的問題, 警方是有專業的翻譯員的. 在此之前, 我們很難作出任何決定, 因大家對他家裏的情況並不清楚, 最重要的是尊重他家人的意願.
5. 這次事故對各隊員的沖擊是很大的, 希望大家善用輔導員給我們的資料及聯絡電話.
_________________
Practice makes perfect.
上一次由jinsi于2008-03-26, 周三 8:35修改，总共修改了2次 |
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bushguy
初涉江湖
加入时间: 2007/07/26
文章: 8
积分: 164.25
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| jinsi 写道: |
3. 這是一次意外, 是沒有對錯, 沒法防範的. 撫心自問各隊員已盡了最大的努力及立即向警方求救, 可惜人力不能勝天.
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Yarite!  According to RCMP the rest of team had eye contact with him across the creek and yet still carried on without trying to get a hold of him to bring him out? Why no one was carrying a radio? Why the victim was minding his own business instead of staying with the group? Where was his knowledge of surviving in snow just for over night? Has anyone noticed that his psychological conditions might pose any threat to his own life and the rest of the group's? .....A lot of questions to be answered.
_________________
Born to be a bushman. |
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jinsi
誉满一方
加入时间: 2007/09/30
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| bushguy 写道: |
| Yarite! According to RCMP the rest of team had eye contact with him across the creek and yet still carried on without trying to get a hold of him to bring him out? Why no one was carrying a radio? Why the victim was minding his own business instead of staying with the group? Where was his knowledge of surviving in snow just for over night? Has anyone noticed that his psychological conditions might pose any threat to his own life and the rest of the group's? .....A lot of questions to be answered. |
Dear bushguy,
I'm sorry that I don't understand the intension of your messages at this difficult time. Some of your statements above are inaccurate. Before you asked your "questions to be answered", have you thought of why you are asking those questions and whether your questions would help the current situation?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Please be considerate.
jinsi
_________________
Practice makes perfect. |
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bushguy
初涉江湖
加入时间: 2007/07/26
文章: 8
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| jinsi 写道: |
| bushguy 写道: |
| Yarite! According to RCMP the rest of team had eye contact with him across the creek and yet still carried on without trying to get a hold of him to bring him out? Why no one was carrying a radio? Why the victim was minding his own business instead of staying with the group? Where was his knowledge of surviving in snow just for over night? Has anyone noticed that his psychological conditions might pose any threat to his own life and the rest of the group's? .....A lot of questions to be answered. |
Dear bushguy,
I'm sorry that I don't understand the intension of your messages at this difficult time. Some of your statements above are inaccurate. Before you asked your "questions to be answered", have you thought of why you are asking those questions and whether your questions would help the current situation?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Please be considerate.
jinsi |
You dont have to answer my questions or argue with me. But you seem not to have any difficulty of getting rid of your responsibility and liabilities conveniently at this 'difficult time'. Of course everyone has to raise these questions. All my questions directed to you were based on RCMP's report. But some of the posts here did confirm RCMP's report.
I'm here trying to help people learn.
_________________
Born to be a bushman. |
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granville
初涉江湖
加入时间: 2008/03/25
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| It seems that guy's foolhardy act led to his death. No one can control an adult's act like that no matter how well prepared. And Jinsi is too kind to point that out. |
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英子
誉满一方
加入时间: 2005/11/09
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There are some mistakes in RCMP's report since it's preliminary report.
For example, age, some timelines are not correct.
It's still under investigation of the this tragedy.
_________________
千江有水千江月，万里无云万里天 |
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马不停蹄
声名鹊起
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加入时间: 2007/06/09
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| bushguy 写道: |
You dont have to answer my questions or argue with me. But you seem not to have any difficulty of getting rid of your responsibility and liabilities conveniently at this 'difficult time'. Of course everyone has to raise these questions. All my questions directed to you were based on RCMP's report. But some of the posts here did confirm RCMP's report.
I'm here trying to help people learn. |
Dear bushguy,
Thanks for your kindly help. Every adult has their own mind and responsible for their own action, just like you can speak whatever you like, the victim also has the freedom to think and act.
Did you notice that there's another accident this weekend?
"Japanese snowboarder missing at B.C. ski resort" --
"She wasn't reported missing by her homestay family for THREE days"
On the other hand this group started searching right away after they didn't see the friend in the car, RCMP and rescue team was called right away after they realized they could not find him. I guess it's reasonable to give the team an hour to walk and search. Unless your practice is call RCMP right away whenever you could not find someone.
You might have more questions for the Japanese girl homestay family? Maybe even suggest people stay away from skiing? |
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bushguy
初涉江湖
加入时间: 2007/07/26
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| 马不停蹄 写道: |
| bushguy 写道: |
You dont have to answer my questions or argue with me. But you seem not to have any difficulty of getting rid of your responsibility and liabilities conveniently at this 'difficult time'. Of course everyone has to raise these questions. All my questions directed to you were based on RCMP's report. But some of the posts here did confirm RCMP's report.
I'm here trying to help people learn. |
Dear bushguy,
Thanks for your kindly help. Every adult has their own mind and responsible for their own action, just like you can speak whatever you like, the victim also has the freedom to think and act.
Did you notice that there's another accident this weekend?
"Japanese snowboarder missing at B.C. ski resort" --
"She wasn't reported missing by her homestay family for THREE days"
On the other hand this group started searching right away after they didn't see the friend in the car, RCMP and rescue team was called right away after they realized they could not find him. I guess it's reasonable to give the team an hour to walk and search. Unless your practice is call RCMP right away whenever you could not find someone.
You might have more questions for the Japanese girl homestay family? Maybe even suggest people stay away from skiing? |
Seems some people can't think straight. Why the homestay family had to be responsible for the Japanese girl?! Did they bring her out for skiing?
On the other hand, the organizer here had to be responsible for everyone in the team. When the guy wandered off, were the rest of the team sure how to get a hold of him? Now you were the organizer, you were supposed to get every rule straightened out. Do not dodge with your accountability.
I don't know what kinda search and rescue they did, but according to the report the spot where the victim showed up last time wasnt ways back from the trailhead or even the highway. Did you guys bring ropes long and strong enough to be used for crossing the creek? Were you willing to cross the creek to continue the search? Did you cross the creek? Why wasted two hours before any report made to RCMP?
I only take whatever the RCMP reported. Any personal account can NOT be trusted at this point.
_________________
Born to be a bushman. |
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虎行北美
精英版主
加入时间: 2005/11/06
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来自: 笨蜡笔
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| bushguy 写道: |
Seems some people can't think straight. Why the homestay family had to be responsible for the Japanese girl?! Did they bring her out for skiing?
On the other hand, the organizer here had to be responsible for everyone in the team. When the guy wandered off, were the rest of the team sure how to get a hold of him? Now you were the organizer, you were supposed to get every rule straightened out. Do not dodge with your accountability.
I don't know what kinda search and rescue they did, but according to the report the spot where the victim showed up last time wasnt ways back from the trailhead or even the highway. Did you guys bring ropes long and strong enough to be used for crossing the creek? Were you willing to cross the creek to continue the search? Did you cross the creek? Why wasted two hours before any report made to RCMP?
I only take whatever the RCMP reported. Any personal account can NOT be trusted at this point. |
你了解当时的情形吗？他们当时在浪费时间吗? 没有展开搜寻吗？
你去过现场吗？在Backpacking Hiking 3天后，他们还有足够的体能涉水过河吗？要是他们当时象你所想象的那样企图过河搜寻，现在遇险的不是1人，而是4人了。
请先了解了事情的详细经过，再发表你的意见。谢谢！
http://www.crossna.com/forum/topic6139.html |
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麓山
声名鹊起
性别: 
加入时间: 2005/12/15
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积分: 1841.31
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First of all, I definitely believe what Lulu and other group members had to say, although I wasn't there when the tragedy happened. Why? Because I hiked with them before and I know what kind of nice and responsible people they are, especially Lulu. She's the best group leader I've ever had.
She's detail oriented, cautious, and takes care of everyone as much as possible. Besides, most of the details in RCMP's report was probably from Lulu and other group members. Personally, I think the information directly from Lulu would be more accurate than what's released from RCMP (except for the discoveries from the rescue team).
Secondly, I don't think it's fair to pinpoint blame on anyone, especially Lulu. She was indeed the group leader. But don't forget, she's just a voluntary team leader. She wasn't paid, or designated by any profitable organization. She is a normal hiker who was kind enough to welcome other people to go together with her. Although she doesn't have any obligation to take care of other fellow hikers she actually always did extra work such as bringing extra tools for group usage or bringing extra food for the group. I really respect her selflessness and generosity.
If you go back and read the initial post she put on for this excursion you would find out it did say something like: there are risks associated with outdoor activities. You should take responsibility for yourself.
Bushguy, you might be more experienced with outdoor activities than any of us. Didn't you also start as a novice? As far as I know Lulu and her group spent a lot of time preparing for this trip. That's why they had 2 safe nights in a risky area. Whether from RCMP's report or hikers' description, the tragedy was obviously not caused by inadequate preparation or caution. Sadly Xiao Lai made wrong decisions on his own.
Lulu and other fellows did whatever they could. We should all pay respect to their great efforts. |
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laoyu
名动江湖
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| 虎行北美 写道: |
| bushguy 写道: |
Seems some people can't think straight. Why the homestay family had to be responsible for the Japanese girl?! Did they bring her out for skiing?
On the other hand, the organizer here had to be responsible for everyone in the team. When the guy wandered off, were the rest of the team sure how to get a hold of him? Now you were the organizer, you were supposed to get every rule straightened out. Do not dodge with your accountability.
I don't know what kinda search and rescue they did, but according to the report the spot where the victim showed up last time wasnt ways back from the trailhead or even the highway. Did you guys bring ropes long and strong enough to be used for crossing the creek? Were you willing to cross the creek to continue the search? Did you cross the creek? Why wasted two hours before any report made to RCMP?
I only take whatever the RCMP reported. Any personal account can NOT be trusted at this point. |
你了解当时的情形吗？他们当时在浪费时间吗? 没有展开搜寻吗？
你去过现场吗？在Backpacking Hiking 3天后，他们还有足够的体能涉水过河吗？要是他们当时象你所想象的那样企图过河搜寻，现在遇险的不是1人，而是4人了。
请先了解了事情的详细经过，再发表你的意见。谢谢！
http://www.crossna.com/forum/topic6139.html |
亲历这个事件的人们心理上已经受到很大创伤了，我觉得作为没有经历现场的人最好不要设身处地地去想象当时的情形，没有人希望这个事情发生，大家能够一起出去就足以证明像兄弟一样的情谊，如果能救，没有道理不救。我作为这件事情的旁观者虽然对于当时的情况没有资格评价，但是就我对这种活动的理解可以谈谈我的看法。
首先，作为组织者是没有责任的，因为这并不是商业行为，也不是正式注册的活动，因此所谓的组织者只能称为是招集人，或者说是一个建议者。就像是有人建议几个朋友去游泳，结果其中有人溺水身亡了，怎么能让那个建议者负责呢。
第二，参加者都是成人，而且是有经验的成人，对于自己的行为应该自己负责，而不是让别人来提醒的。所有参与者应该很清楚这种活动的风险，况且在招集的贴子里已经声明了。所以我尽管曾经有过各种的户外经验，但在这里一直想参加又不敢参加。
第三，在野外相互之间的营救有个原则，那就是首先要保护好自己，我们不能要求别人在不顾自己性命的情况下去救别人，这就太没道理了。看得出来大家都是朋友，即便是素不相识也不会眼睁睁地见死不救，我相信在现场的人已经尽最大努力了。我们还能要求他们做什么？
第四，携带设备问题，由于每个人对于户外风险的认知不同，同时又不是商业行为，那么求生设备就很难统一，这也和经济条件有关系，招集者很难协调具体携带什么求生设备。
第五，从对当时的描述来看，遇难者走在大家的前面迷路了，而不是落在后面所造成的。说明他比其他人更有体力和自信，往往溺水的都是会游泳的，而且水性还不错，你怎能让水性差的去提醒水性好的人如何去游泳呢？
第六，无论警方的结果怎么样，这一定就是一个意外的事故。所以争论责任问题并没有什么意义，只能大家将来参加活动时增强自身的防范意识，避免类似的灾难发生。而不是指望招集人来替每一个人负责，那样天下就没有人来招集了。
第七，最好我们能够为那失去爱子的母亲做点什么，而不是说点什么。这样会显得更有意义。
_________________
有时间到我的博客里去坐坐。
http://blog.sina.com.cn/qixingxiangdao |
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walleye
小有名气
加入时间: 2005/11/21
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我个人觉得，这个时候大家先不要评判谁是谁非，对lulu以及参加这次活动的朋友在整个过程中的表现也不要再做评判。对和与本次事件有关的人员我们都会表示善意的慰问和关心。但过多的表示“挺谁、支持谁”可能会带来更多的误解。
冷静、拿出你的实际行动，帮助所有在这次事件中受影响的每一位朋友。 |
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百年雨林
声名鹊起
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意外之所以成为意外，就是因为没有人认为它会发生；
该说的大家都说了，该做的大家都在做，我身边所有HIKER，不论肤色、种族，没有谁认为同伴要为此负责，相反，大家都知道同伴已经尽力了；
建议开辟登上事故专栏，收集类似事件实例，更容易给人经验和教训；
再多的说教、指责，都不如生活中的经历来得印象深刻；
请时刻对生命、对大自然心怀一丝敬畏；
_________________
安全意识，团队精神，缺一不可！
照片请发到这里： icehare@crossna.com |
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Mashimaro
精英版主
加入时间: 2005/11/08
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BUSHGUY朋友你好，
相信除了你，许多人都有类似的疑问：谁应该对此次事故负责？我愿意在此分享一下自己的看法供您参考。下面讲到的这些观点完全是我个人的片面感受，有不当之处请谅解。不代表，我也没资格代表网站的立场。
我愿意相信您的质疑是出于探讨问题的根源以避免类似的悲剧重演，而非要挑衅为难某个/些人。我也赞同这样的探讨很有意义。
相信每位HI友现在和我一样，正经受着失去一位HI友的痛楚煎熬和对一条年轻生命逝去的无限惋惜，甚至，还或多或少地夹杂着对自己HIKING时没有出事的心有余悸。
这两天每当想到小来的英年早逝，泪水就止不住地流: 未满38岁，还没成立自己的小家庭，人生的多少精彩还没演绎， 生命的音符就曳然而止。
也正因为此，这样的探讨虽然很沉重，但是又很有意义，因为和每一个HI友都息息相关。
也许，您已经发现基本上每个网友的发言观点都和您很不同：没有抱怨，没有指责，有的只是对归来队友的百般安慰，对逝者小来的无限怀念。这不是因为大家窜通一气，要包庇袒护朋友，帮他们逃避责任，而是因为这里发言的大部分人都和你很不同：他们是无数次HIKING的热心参与者，对HIKING的过程、TRAIL的状况、此次事件的经过（从几个月前的计划筹备到事后的拯救措施）都了解得一清二楚。事情发生的前前后后队友们的表现的确都让人无话可说，他们完全尽到了自己的责任和义务。如果您愿意花些时间把事件的经过了解得和大家一样清楚，甚至亲身走走他们走过的路，相信您提出的所有问题就不解而释, 不需要其他人再一遍一遍地和您ARGUE了。您也就不会有“I just don't get it!”这样的感叹了。
有人质疑那么少人为什么还没一起走。其实一起HIKING的朋友体力有差别，每个人的喜好目的又不同（有的人HIKING为的是交际，享受和朋友三五成群、打打闹闹的愉悦；也有的人为的是亲近大自然，和大自然独自对话，喜欢独来独往），所以同一个HIKING队伍的行进节奏肯定不那么一致。有这样疑问的朋友显然是没有HIKING经验。但即使这样，每次活动LULU都特意安排一个体力好的人在前面开路，一个经验丰富的在后面断后，而小来是走在中间的。
另外，我想有必要介绍一下这条TRAIL的情况。我不是一个regular hiker, 但是GARIBALDI TRAIL也走过三四趟。而且不仅是我，这个网站几乎每个人都走过这条TRAIL，这不仅因为TRAIL目的地GARIBALDI湖无与伦比的美丽，也因为这条TRAIL标识清楚简单易行。尤其 TRAIL一开始的一段路（是本次活动的最后一段），是很规则的之字形，完全不存在任何岔路。这样的一段TRAIL，就算是第一次去的人都不会走错，何况小来光今年冬天就去了两次，这次是第三次。 您如果亲自走一趟，就会理解JINSI为何有这样的感叹了
“....為何小來會選擇過河等等, 這些問題的答案(包括警察及拯救隊) 我們是永遠也不會知道的..... ”
虽然大家都很悲伤，但现在最悲痛的肯定不是你，也不是我，而是参加此次活动，陪小来走过生命最后一段历程的其他4个队员。他们刚刚经历为期整整三天的雪地BACKPACKING，没能如愿尽快踏上归途，反而又要经受整整24小时的寒冷、疲劳、饥渴交加和失去队友的极度煎熬。（第二天找到小来之后，他们没有一个人离开, 都自愿配合警方及医务人员在WHISTLER处理相关事宜，接受心理治疗，傍晚才回到家）他们现在经受的心理创伤您想过吗？我们现在都不敢给这几位HI友打电话，因为一打，电话另一端就是压抑不住的哽咽，让人闻之心碎。
死者长已矣，存者犹戚戚。现在我们这些旁观者的讨论无论是出于何种目的都难免有失偏颇。所以还是WALLEYE说得对，在RCMP没有公布调查结果之前，大家关于是与非的讨论还是暂时停止吧。
真要总结教训的话,还是百年雨林说的好：
请时刻对生命、对大自然心怀一丝敬畏！
如果真是关心小来，还是尽力协助警方办好善后的工作，停止无谓的争吵。
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ALEXYIM
精英版主
加入时间: 2005/11/21
文章: 6414
来自: North Vancouver
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肉體上創傷,可用藥物治療.
隊員們, 小來的家人, 用心用力跟進事件的人.
他們心靈的創傷, 是須要大家用積極的行動去支持才能治療的.
由其是小來的家人,更須要我們的支持.
我衷心的希望大家積極的捐助, 小小無拘.
_________________
3R recreation skiing skills concept:
Relax, Review, and Refine.
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